[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:05:45] <rdieter>	KDE SIG meeting, start
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:05:53] <pembo13>	cool
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:06:20] <rdieter>	who's here today (while I pull up the agenda)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:06:32] <jreznik>	present
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:06:36] <svahl>	present
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:06:41] 	 * pembo13 present
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:06:42] <SMParrish>	here
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:07:13] <Kevin_Kofler>	Present.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:07:17] <than>	present
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:07:28] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-23 -- Agenda".
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:07:42] <rdieter>	ok, looks like we don't have much of an agenda yet, so that's topic 1: Agenda
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:08:14] <rdieter>	what should we discuss today?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:08:24] <pembo13>	not sure if the ongoing comps issue is relevant
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:08:27] <than>	Echo icon theme
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:09:05] <rdieter>	pembo13: comps issue?  (krazy2?)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:09:50] <pembo13>	comps.xml, among other things, not making the KDE install group very accessible
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:10:12] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-23 -- Comps".
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:10:30] <pembo13>	again, not sure if that's relevant, I know Kevin_Koffler has been persueing it
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:10:37] <rdieter>	ok, let's start with Comps, I'm not sure what you'r getting at, can you explain more what you mean?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:00] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler, pembo13 ?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:03] <Kevin_Kofler>	Folks, this is not relevant for the KDE SIG meeting at all.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:09] <pembo13>	ok, sorry
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:15] <Kevin_Kofler>	This is a PackageKit issue, it has to be discussed with PackageKit developers.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:20] <rdieter>	ah, ok
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:27] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-23 -- Echo icon theme".
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:33] <rdieter>	next topci: echo icon theme
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:11:47] <Kevin_Kofler>	There's not much we can do about it, except maybe forking kpackagekit and trying to hack around libpackagekit limitations, and I don't think that's a productive solution.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:12:10] <than>	do we want to set echo icon theme as default?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:12:11] <rdieter>	ok, I'm lame, I said I'd take care of setting kde-settings making echo icon theme default, didn't get round to it yet.  sorry.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:12:38] <rdieter>	that was last week, not done yet.  So, what now, do we still want to try it out?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:13:30] <than>	it looks bad with the systemsettings, there're many icons still missing
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:13:32] <rdieter>	the blocker for me is that I wanted to try to make a new kde-settings release that pulled sources from fedorahosted,
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:14:04] <rdieter>	nod, on the many icons missing part, I was still game for giving fedora-art folks a chance to try to fixup the missing pieces.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:14:24] <Kevin_Kofler>	The problem is that time until F10 is limited.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:14:33] <Kevin_Kofler>	So it'd have to happen quickly.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:14:43] <rdieter>	but that requires work on our part to report the missing icons, and on their part to add the icons, of course.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:14:49] <Kevin_Kofler>	And designing new icons takes time.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:15:05] <jreznik>	how many icons are missing (+/-)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:15:08] <rdieter>	and I doubt anyone on our side has reported the missing icons yet... am I right? :)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:16:00] <rdieter>	jreznik: for the most obvious ones, in systemsettings anyway, there's at least 5-6 there
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:16:11] <than>	right, noone has reported. it's great if someone could make the list of missing icons
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:16:41] <rdieter>	task: find/report missing echo icons, anyone up to it?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:16:47] <svahl>	Isn't it one bug for each missing icon, or am I wrong?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:17:38] <rdieter>	svahl: good question, that would seem a bit overkill offhand, maybe we (or the person charged with the task) to ask the art folks how best to coordinate reporting stuff like that.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:17:45] <pembo13>	rdieter, is it just a matter of installing a theme packing and looking for missing icons?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:17:53] <rdieter>	pembo13: pretty much, yeah.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:18:04] <than>	svahl: i will say one bug for all missing icons in KDE
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:18:16] <Kevin_Kofler>	pembo13: We only want to do this with echo-icon-theme.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:18:28] <pembo13>	rdieter, cool.. point me at the pack, let me know if you want this done against stable ro rawhide, and i'll get it done tonight
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:18:31] <Kevin_Kofler>	There's no way we can hunt for missing KDE 4 icons in all the GNOME icon themes around.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:18:56] <rdieter>	pembo13: yum install echo-icon-theme , then set your icon theme in use to be Echo, and go nuts hunting
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:19:15] <pembo13>	rdiether, will email my self that task, merci
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:19:16] <Kevin_Kofler>	Well, you can do bluecurve-icon-theme if you get bored. :-)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:19:21] <svahl>	Maybe we could prepare a kde-settings.rpm and deliver it to willing testers (eg. kde-redhat) to get some wider feedback before rawhide is unlocked againg
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:19:23] <svahl>	-g
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:19:41] <rdieter>	svahl: good suggestion, I can probably do that.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:21:23] <rdieter>	I should have some time to make a new proper kde-settings today too.  I'm sorry my tardiness ended up missing the F10-beta
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:22:25] <rdieter>	with that in mind, I really doubt we'll end up keeping it that way, and will revert to oxygen for final release, but it'll be a good exercize anyway. (and get echo fixed a little bit either way)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:23:08] <rdieter>	pembo13: when/if you file any bugs, let us all know, so we can help out tracking the missing bits.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:23:22] <pembo13>	rdieter, will do
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:23:32] <rdieter>	anything else echo related?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:24:45] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-23 -- phonon-xine for F10-beta".
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:24:58] <rdieter>	I just remember the phonon/phonon-backend-xine issue...
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:25:28] <pembo13>	I regret to say that I simply removed PulseAudio, KDe works a lot better now
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:25:42] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler had suggested we could possibly tweak the ks config(s) to add it.  svahl, did you hear anything about that? :)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:25:47] <Kevin_Kofler>	https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/821
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:05] <Kevin_Kofler>	f13 said he'd just add the phonon-backend-xine package to the KDE config.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:28] <svahl>	rdieter: sorry, no
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:29] <rdieter>	ok, cool.  It occurred to me, we could also add phonon-backend-xine to comps
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:42] <Kevin_Kofler>	That's not really needed.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:53] <Kevin_Kofler>	Adding it to the config is just a temporary workaround for the beta.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:26:56] <rdieter>	alright, f13's manual addition should work nicely
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:27:06] <Kevin_Kofler>	It will be dragged in by the deps anyway after the beta.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:27:19] <rdieter>	but, longer term, I'd prefer the comps solution to hard-coding it via deps.  thoughts?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:27:28] <Kevin_Kofler>	We can't just drop the dependency, we can't rely on comps alone, for things due to upgrades.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:27:53] <Kevin_Kofler>	Or rather: ... due to things like upgrades.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:27:54] <rdieter>	and comps, once f9 is released, really isn't changable either, so it's less flexible
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:02] <rdieter>	f10 is released, that is
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:18] <f13>	rdieter: sure it is
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:25] <rdieter>	f13: oh?  ok, neat.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:33] <f13>	rdieter: you can make changes to the f10 comps, it gets used when creating the update repos
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:39] <f13>	so the update repos will have updated group information
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:28:43] <f13>	doesn't help new installs though
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:29:11] <rdieter>	alright, then adding to comps doesn't seem to have that downside, any objections then?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:30:11] <rdieter>	f13: what happens if the released comps includes pkg a, and we later remove/change it to b.  do folks who do : yum groupinstall foo, still get a?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:30:46] <f13>	rdieter: probably.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:30:58] <f13>	when reading multiple group definitions, the conglomerate is used
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:31:02] <rdieter>	ok, that's what I was worried about with my "less flexible" comment.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:31:09] <Kevin_Kofler>	rdieter: comps don't get used for upgrades.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:31:23] <Kevin_Kofler>	So removing the dependency and relying on comps only is a bad idea.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:31:36] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: that too, but I wasn't going to suggest relying on comps *only*.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:32:22] <rdieter>	ok, let's leave it out of comps then.  I think that closes this issue,    anything else to discuss today?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:32:34] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-09-23 -- Open Discussion".
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:33:40] <pembo13>	anyone know what's up with KPackageKit and KNetworkManager?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:33:48] <pembo13>	haven't heard much of late
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:34:17] <jreznik>	for anyone who missed my post in #fedora-kde, there are now video recordings from FUDCon on Blip.TV with our KDE 4 presentation http://fudcon2008brno.blip.tv/
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:34:52] <svahl>	jreznik: great, thanks
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:35:36] <rdieter>	pembo13: knetworkmanager is in rawhide, and will (likely) be in F10, kinda sorta works.  we (I, dgilmore, foo*) aren't 100% with it's functionality and usability yet.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:35:38] <Kevin_Kofler>	Something tells me we should look for another solution than KPackageKit.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:35:54] <Kevin_Kofler>	KPackageKit is limited by the underlying PackageKit library's limitations.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:18] <Kevin_Kofler>	And Richard Hughes makes no secret out of the fact that it is designed for non-technical and/or new users only.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:30] <pembo13>	that struck me as odd too
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:31] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: give it time to mature.  it'll get better
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:40] <pembo13>	are you thinkign something like KYum?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:43] <Kevin_Kofler>	rdieter: Not with that basic design premise.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:36:59] <rdieter>	real powerusers use command line yum anyway. :)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:02] <Kevin_Kofler>	pembo13: KYum is hugely broken and unmaintained.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:09] <Kevin_Kofler>	rdieter: Well, I disagree with that.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:13] <SMParrish>	lib for kpackagekit has just been completely re-written
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:24] <Kevin_Kofler>	I like using Synaptic for all my package management tasks.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:31] <pembo13>	Kevin_Kofler wasn't suggesting it specificall
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:32] <jreznik>	command line is better but sometimes it's better to have GUI to overview...
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:37:46] <jreznik>	some plasma applet around?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:01] <pembo13>	hmm, that might be cool
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:10] <Kevin_Kofler>	I've yet to see anything comparable from the yum world, yumex comes close, but not quite, PackageKit now comes close too, but is lacking usability for power users.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:11] <rdieter>	SMParrish: so... is kpackagekit even in rawhide yet?  last I knew, no.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:34] <rdieter>	SMParrish: if not, any eta?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:45] <SMParrish>	beta 4 is there, the .1 release is do out any day now
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:38:54] <SMParrish>	s/do/due
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:39:20] <rdieter>	excellent.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:39:29] <pembo13>	maybe we should start defining use cases we want in a GUi for yum and hope someone takes up the challenge to implement them
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:39:32] <Kevin_Kofler>	pembo13: KYum is unmaintained, badly designed (screen scraping), buggy (corrupts Livna .repo files) and slow (due to running "yum list ..." and screenscraping all the time).
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:39:49] <Kevin_Kofler>	That said, PackageKit is slow at listing too.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:41:28] <rdieter>	well, anything else for today?  quit early?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:42:01] <svahl>	the switch back to koffice-1.6 has increased the size of the live images a bit: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianVahl/CurrentPackageList
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:42:27] <rdieter>	rats, do we need to change/remove anything?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:42:49] <svahl>	i686 is fine (~700 megs), only x86_64 is a bit to big (~705)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:43:19] <rdieter>	svahl: do you have ideas on how to trim that, or do you want/need help or advice?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:43:48] <Kevin_Kofler>	I'd say 705 is well within overburn range. :-)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:43:55] <Kevin_Kofler>	I wouldn't worry too much for the beta.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:43:56] <pembo13>	reminds me of one small question when this topic is done
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:43:58] <svahl>	I'm not sure. We could remove kftpgrabber (~1 meg) and only use dolphin but I don't know if that's enough
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:44:11] <svahl>	another option could be to remove amarok
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:44:43] <rdieter>	ok, let's hit the CurrentPackageList after meeting in #fedora-kde, and we can come up with something
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:44:48] <svahl>	Kevin_Kofler: I'm also fine with the oversized x86_64 image for the beta. But for the RC/Final it should fit
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:44:50] <rdieter>	pembo13: go ahead.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:44:50] <Kevin_Kofler>	Does using phonon-backend-xine instead of phonon-backend-gstreamer change anything?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:07] <pembo13>	is there any plan to expand the sound theme in KDE?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:18] <Kevin_Kofler>	I.e. is anything else dragging in gstreamer?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:19] <pembo13>	i noticed that Konversation had no sounds event available for it
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:25] <Kevin_Kofler>	Because xine-lib is being dragged in anyway.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:29] <Kevin_Kofler>	So now we have both on the image.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:45:52] <Kevin_Kofler>	(I think dragonplayer drags it in, it uses some xine-lib APIs when it detects the Phonon xine-lib backend to work around missing Phonon features.)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:46:26] <rdieter>	pembo13: no plans (here in fedora/kde-sig).  that said, konv sound events work for me.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:46:42] <svahl>	Kevin_Kofler: phonon-backend-gstreamer is 212533 bytes due to rpm.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:46:43] <rdieter>	pembo13: but maybe that needs kdebase3 to be installed, not sure
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:46:57] <Kevin_Kofler>	svahl: But it drags in all of GStreamer too.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:02] <pembo13>	rdieter, they work, I just had no sounds to attach the events to, compared to Kopete, which had quite a few
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:08] <Kevin_Kofler>	pembo13, rdieter: I guess they are in kdebase3?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:14] <svahl>	mhh, ok
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:31] <pembo13>	possibly
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:43] <rdieter>	pembo13: install kdebase3, and see if that helps.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:47:59] <pembo13>	will do
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:48:33] <Kevin_Kofler>	Hmmm, looks like gstreamer was already being dragged in even before phonon-backend-gstreamer.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:48:36] <Kevin_Kofler>	https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=SebastianVahl/CurrentPackageList&oldid=37592
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:48:52] <Kevin_Kofler>	I'm not sure what drags it in.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:49:37] <Kevin_Kofler>	So removing phonon-backend-gstreamer won't change much size-wise.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:50:42] <rdieter>	let's work on that too, should be rocket-science to deduce where gstreamer is coming from.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:50:49] <rdieter>	should *not* be.. anyway
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:02] <svahl>	Kevin_Kofler: libcanberra 
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:16] <svahl>	needs libgstreamer-0.10.so.0
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:34] <Kevin_Kofler>	And what drags in libcanberra?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:35] <rdieter>	so what pulls in libcanberra? :)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:44] <Kevin_Kofler>	That's the GNOME sound lib, why is it on the KDE spin?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:51:50] <svahl>	pavucontrol and libcanberra-gtk2
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:09] <Kevin_Kofler>	OK, so let's kill pavucontrol again?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:09] <rdieter>	#@#$#$#$, drop pavucontrol?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:17] <rdieter>	creepy
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:32] <rdieter>	I'll stop talking, let Kevin_Kofler continue to read my mind.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:37] <Kevin_Kofler>	But what drags in libcanberra-gtk2? Just pavucontrol? Or other GNOME crap too?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:53] <svahl>	only pavucontro
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:52:54] <svahl>	l
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:54:05] <Kevin_Kofler>	Then I guess we should drop pavucontrol.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:54:13] <Kevin_Kofler>	It's not essential, just a "nice to have".
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:54:27] <svahl>	+1
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:54:29] <Kevin_Kofler>	With that and phonon-backend-gstreamer removed, we should have no gstreamer and more room.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:54:37] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: and be nice, leave "crap" out of it.  I'm sure we all would be offended by any "KDE crap" comments too
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:55:01] <rdieter>	s/crap/stuff/ works too. :)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:55:09] <Kevin_Kofler>	Good point, sorry for that. :-)
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:55:45] <pembo13>	Kevin_Kofler, looks like KPacakgekit uses it's own lib
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:55:49] <pembo13>	according to the ML
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:55:53] <rdieter>	this solution should work nicely tho, for saving space
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:56:10] <Kevin_Kofler>	pembo13: It uses the PK lib, but it has a QPackageKit binding on top of it.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:56:24] <Kevin_Kofler>	It's limited by what the core PK lib allows.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:15] <pembo13>	ok
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:20] <rdieter>	alright, we're out of time for today, thanks all
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:26] <rdieter>	KDE SIG Meeting end
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:31] <Kevin_Kofler>	I don't understand the "kpackagekit uses it's own bindings and library." part at all.
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:43] <Kevin_Kofler>	It uses the PackageKit library, doesn't it?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:45] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule".
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:57:47] <Kevin_Kofler>	SMParrish?
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:58:11] <rdieter>	let's take the further discussion back to #fedora-kde , FPC should be landing soon
[Di Sep 23 2008] [18:58:30] <jreznik>	ok